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Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
70
   |
Posted - 2012.09.24 08:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'd like to start off by saying that this operation wasn't personal: Probe Patrol has nothing against Mad Mystics of Maniacal Mayhem (4M). You were just a target of opportunity for a proof of concept mission.
Ever since Two Step mentioned that POS defenses in C1 through C4 wormhole systems are over powered and needed to be nerfed I wanted to see for myself how hard it would be to take down a POS in a C1. Now I'll freely admit that the POS we went after was no "**** Star" or "Death Star" but it really didn't matter -that POS was going down...
Due to mass restrictions the largest ship class we could use was battle cruisers, so we chose the Gila (a pirate faction cruiser) as our initial weapon to get the tower into re-enforced. Due to the ship's drone bonuses, and the drone damage amplifier module, we were able to fit Gila's that could do in excess of 600 DPS with Sentry Drones (over 700 DPS if you have Gallente Cruiser 5). We used Warden IIs and Bouncer IIS to play off of a large Minmitar Tower's resistance holes and it took less than an hour for less than a dozen Gilas. Note: That was Sentry Drones folks -a POS bash that consumed no ammo.
For the completion op we used armor cruisers plus support ships. Someone from 4M batphoned their friends, and we watched a lot of pilots go into the C1 and log out before the tower came out of re-enforced (lost count of the number of Falcons they brought in) but there wasn't much resistance. A few stealth bomber runs that were completely infective, and a Falcon that died in our bubble when it jumped in from high sec with one of our pilots and the worm hole collapsed behind it. We were really hoping for a fight, but it just didn't happen.
After we pulled the POS takedown fleet out of the system 4M did use a derogatory term for describing a female's genitalia because we didn't stick around and fight them. Pro tip: The time to fight is BEFORE someone blows up your POS... 
So I'm sitting here thinking that C1 through C4 wormholes are just fine with the current Player Owned Stations and that there doesn't need to be a change to the kind of defenses that you can have in those systems. You just need to think outside the box and be willing to use something other than capital ships...
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
71
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 11:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Aducat Ragnarson wrote:If you put 1 or 2 ECCM projectors on every gila it should be no problem. If the gilas are Jammed, big deal, the drones keep shooting. If the logis get jammed, it is 2 ECCM projectors per gila on the logi.
That's one of the reasons why we went with Gilas -jam them and the Sentries continue to fire. Speed tanking is your friend when the logistics gets jammed, and the Gilas were afterburner fit.
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
72
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 12:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
For the gun theory-crafters: We encapped the guns and ECM with the support fleet while the Gilas worked on the POS. Didn't lose any Sentries, and we had more than enough logistics. I'd like to go up against a more heavily defended tower, but the end result would still have been the same.
Funny thing about Oracles, or any other tier 3 battle cruiser, is that they use ammo (gonna ignore the fact that a Minmitar tower has resists to EM and thermal and not call anyone out for suggesting them). This whole op was "proof of concept" and Gilas + Sentries worked extremely well -we were very surprised at how fast the tower went into re-enforced. Also cool to be able to easily change the damage type by simply changing the drones.
Ninja edit: This is by no means our first and last POS bash. This one was just a dress rehearsal for future ops, so I'm sure we'll go up against a POS that's better defended and I'll be more than happy to update this thread with the kill mails.
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
72
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 19:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
Meytal wrote:
The problem is ECM, not tower size. Fix ECM, not what isn't broken.
This. So much this...
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
72
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 05:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
The moral of the story is that there is no need to nerf C1 through C4 defenses -those systems, like any other system in Eve, can be taken. It may not be easy, it may not be in the ship you want to fly, but it can be done.
If there is anything at all that's out of balance it's ECM -it so desperately needs to be hit with a nerf bat it's not even funny. ECM, among many other things in this game, makes players risk adverse. No sense in engaging if I'm just gonna get jammed out anyway, right?! Hindsight being what it is I wonder if the opposition was jumping all of those Falcons in as a deterrent: They knew we had eyes on them, knew we could see everything that they were moving in. Maybe they were trying to intimidate us with all that ECM...
So Two Step maybe what we need here is for someone to talk to CCP about ECM and now it should be limited, if not completely restricted from, any new Player Owned Stations...
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
74
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 12:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Euthanasia Anneto wrote:Yes that is, though the finishing blow that is. a day and half before they done it with the sentry's. Tactic changed because as mentioned, they noticed a lot of stuff coming in though, having witnessed myself, nothing engaged us :'( Perhaps another time... I don't show up on any of the kills on that board :( That report is not showing fulland accurate information.
I'm guessing that you're talking about your alt Rek, since you and I were flying neut Legions for the completion strike -it's just too bad 4M didn't come out to play :(
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
75
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 12:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Holycrap Isuck wrote:
I can't fault Probe, they brought it and the defending force had the wrong type of fleet in place. I also didn't see any vulgarities exchanged, but I also wasn't paying any attention to local. Good job Probe and there is always another place and another time.
The vulgarities were on coms: "Frickin bomb -pull in your drones!"
Fly safe M8 :)
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
75
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 06:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
Piugattuk wrote:Dorn Val wrote:Meytal wrote:
The problem is ECM, not tower size. Fix ECM, not what isn't broken.
This. So much this... ECM should be as powerful as it is as part of POS defense, it should take a lots and lots of effort to bash a POS because since you can't hold SOV in a WH. POS bashing as it is now is not that hard judging from all the corps that advertise for it, it should be like taking SOV away from POS owner (effort needed), (by SOV i mean taking POS out from WH if you want WH for yourself).
Two Step proposed that C1to C4 space should not be as easy to defend as higher level systems. There are no restrictions on POS sizes and defenses anywhere in K space, and decreasing the ability to defend C1 to C4 systems would turn them into ghost towns.
It is a really bad idea...
I agree with you -a corp should have the ability to defend their assets, and it should not be easy to take them out. But if it seems like the defenses are too great, that it's limiting conflict, then fix what's actually broken and take the nerd bat to ECM.
ECM turns everyone in this game into hypocrites: We all use it, and at the same time we all cry foul when it is used against us. It's obviously broken because its over powered, so just nuke it already and put everyone on the same playing field.
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
76
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 06:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote: I think two-step has an issue with people in C1's with mental setups, who know what they're doing.
...and someone can set up a POS like that anywhere in Eve -why should W space be an exception?
Xen Solarus wrote: Try again on a Large POS, with at least 6 of each type of ECM plus gunned to the maximum with crazy amounts of redundancies. Add some online defenders manning the guns and perhaps some active members in system harrassing your fleet, and now we're talking!
Yup, it would have been a lot more difficult. But it would not have been impossible, and if ECM is the problem (and everyone knows that it is) then the solution is to nerf it and not restrict tower size based on the W system classification.
Xen Solarus wrote: Though i do agree with you, i think any significantly determined fleet can evict a corporation from a lower class wormhole. I see them as the last true place where a small corp can take space to call their own. Making changes to the current system would only (yet again) benefit the larger corps/alliances. They already have the higher classes to fight over, and make an insane profit compaired to the lower classes. Making things harder for smaller corps would be a massive mistake imo, and would simply open the door for the larger alliances to take over everything. 
Which is why I think limiting the POS sizes based on W space system class is a huge mistake since it will turn those systems into ghost towns (think low sec). Great for the corp and alliances that live in C5 and C6 systems since they'll have unrestricted access to K space for their supply runs...
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
76
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 06:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Your victory, while satisfying, was largely due to incompetent defense. Any tower can be taken down easily if there are no gunners, or if the setup is bad. I like the concept you went in with, but the outcome does nothing for the argument at hand.
I agree with you in part. It's true that it would have been more difficult if the tower had been better defended, but it would not have been impossible. To claim that POSes in C1 to C4 W space systems can't be taken out due to wormhole mass restrictions is a lie -it can be done, you're just not going to do it in a dreadnaught or a carrier. The real problem is ECM -balance it, nerf it, or just eliminate it completely from POS defenses and most of the problem with taking a POS in a lower class system is solved. But if ECM is changed then it needs to be changed for every W space system and not just the lower class ones.
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
79
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 08:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
42BelowVodka wrote:i know u guys killed the POS to make a point, but other than that is it worth the time and effort to attack a large tower in a class 1?
takes a lot of organizing to get it going and with a well fueled POS u have to wait out the reinforcement timer. and than after killing it u have to find a way back to ur own wh
It really depends on if you want to take control of the system.
As for finding a way back to our own system: There is always a scanning alt in our C2 (at least one) so that we always know what our exits are. Also when we decided to bash the POS we put scanning alts in the target system and left them their. So we went in, put the POS into re-enforced, left the target system (except for the scanners we left behind), and when the POS came out of re-enforced our scanning alt(s) scanned down the new entrance to the target system and we brought a fleet in. We had the system under surveillance the whole time, and our fleet was only tied op for the two operations.
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
84
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 05:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
The only question I have is why? It is a C1, what did you get out of it besides a POS KM? Or is that all you were after? Did you really expect a good fight in a C1? They are not really worth defending.
Two Step had proposed limiting tower sizes in lower class W space because he said that it was too difficult to take down a tower in those systems. IMHO it's a terrible idea because it would turn C1 to C4 space into a ghost town, and if there is a problem with POS defenses being over powered the solution is to take the nerf bat to ECM. The entire operation was simply a proof of concept mission, nothing more.
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
84
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 06:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
Tom Hagen wrote:
The problem we would be facing if we made it easier to take down POS's in lower class WH. Is that roaming gangs would probably do it if they thought there was ISK in it or just for pure fun.
I honestly don't have a problem with small gangs going after a tower, or even Sleepers hitting a POS. Even without ECM I doubt that a small gang would bother hitting your home base unless they knew that your corp was really small, and they'd probably just be doing it to get you to pay a ransom (perfectly acceptable game play). Probe has several corporations currently paying us "protection money"...
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
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